what it will take to make atleast 160whp on NA 16V?

[vwnut8392]

i was recently approached by my cousin about building a car to race a 4 cylinder class at one of the local oval track speedway's in my area. as it works out for him i have an extra 86 scirocco sitting thats perfect for the job and a relatively low mileage 2.0 16V out of a 1992 GTI.

Current stock pile of 16V parts i have laying around at my disposal.
replace the small port head with a large port 1.8 16V head
ABA metal head gasket to raise the compression a little
ARP head stud kit
run a stock exhaust cam in the intake cams place
convert it to digifant 1 EFI so it can be easily tuned, CIS-E sucks lol.
MK3 ABA stock injectors for pump gas (200cc @ 3.0 BAR) or my old stock AAN injectors for E85 (280cc @ 3.0 BAR)
raceland 4 to 1 header for MK1 16V
custom 2.5in exhaust with borla muffler
custom 3in intake with blox velocity stack and open element K&N
autotech adjustable cam gear
MK3 accessory setup with AC and PS deleted
modified ECS tuning aluminum underdrive pulleys from a 1.8T
lightened factory flywheel

and thats all i can think of that i have laying around to put into this thing right now.im hoping this setup can make atleast 160whp. my brother has been working on an ITB setup for 16v's at the machine shop too and i know those can squeeze a little more power out. i was even thinking about sourcing another euro 50mm intake manifold for now too. also do you guys think there would be any benefit with running the car on strictly E85 over 93 pump gas? the speedway regulates the cars to 150whp and they do have a dyno on site to test the cars so im shooting for a larger number and than detune a to meet their numbers if it is possible. engine modifications are unrestricted all they says is to NOT go over 150whp. let hear what you guys think and what your input is to meet these power goals.

[pkw]

I do not think that will be 160 whp. It will come down to cams and it will take you multiple sets and a lot of dyno time to make 150-160 whp.
if you want cheap and easy start with an engine that is big and makes that hp already. quad 4, honda, or even 3.7 liter mercruiser marine engine dropped into a proven chassis should do the trick. displacement = broad power band.

[carl]

Not sure on your budget but... you can shave head for more compression, get bigger valves + undercut intakes, shorter valve guides, smooth out and match ports, get more timing with good gas, efi for sure.

[themagellan]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... p-in-a-16v

Definitely worth a read.

[vwnut8392]

thanks for the input guys! i seen there was a guy who made 160whp on a car than had a ported head, larger valves, 283/279 cat cams, adjustable cam gear, ABA metal head gasket, old CIS-E etc. i think the advantage i have is getting off of the mechanical fuel injection because years ago when i was talking to and working with john watts at SNS tuning he showed me a dyno sheet where he made a digifant 1 converted 2.0 16V that was bone stock less a cone filter and an exhaust make 32 more whp than it did on its original motronic. i can see now that all the major gains are made in the head but i think the fuel injection conversion will be the second key element to meeting the power goals because with DF1 i can force the ECU into open loop all the time and i have a full range of adjustability with fuel and timing where as on the CIS-E or even motronic im limited to fueling adjustments and there is really no timing adjustment other than advancing or retarding the distributor itself and the adjustments only go so far there.

it sort of makes me frustrated to think how this engine is so severely crippled without a turbo on it like the 7A 20v compared to a 3B or AAN. im sticking with a VW chassis and the car has to have the matching manufacturer's engine so putting anything else in outside of VW or audi makes the car ineligible for competition. also i chose the scirocco because it did come with a 16V factory and its far lighter than an MK2 GTI or jetta. it looks like i'll be competing against twin cam neon's, 2.4 twin cam cavalier's and cobalt's mainly. im starting to wonder of the old VW 16V will be able to hold its own or even out perform these cars as most of them are 150hp right out of the box.

[90quattrocoupe]

Well, since you are going with a 2.0 16v, the engine numbers will not match the Sic. Why not go with an ABA , which will give you a better rod ratio, and go with VEMS?

Greg W.

[themagellan]

Well, since you are going with a 2.0 16v, the engine numbers will not match the Sic. Why not go with an ABA , which will give you a better rod ratio, and go with VEMS?

Greg W.

ABA did not exist in Mk2 or scirocco platform, plus both would make worse power and wouldn't fit in his 'spec' category.

I think you could be competitive vs the other cars around a road course, since you will make more power down low and (Hopefully) more torque.

If you are worried about it, i'd just do a simple power/weight ratio of your competitors through all the rev ranges. Even then you may find you have some advantages in the chassis over the other cars. Who knows!

[Justin517]

Why not toss a $100 eBay turbo manifold and a junk yard T3 on it and just run like 6 psi?

You can even cheat with an easily removable throttle stop or a hidden boost controller lol


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[90quattrocoupe]

I was talking about using an ABA short block with 16V top end. The Scirocco, I don't believe, ever came with a 2.0l motor, so using the ABA block would not change that factor.

The 94 Audi competition had 275 hp, when they raced it in Germany, so getting 160whp from a 16V has to be doable.

Greg W.

[vwnut8392]

I was talking about using an ABA short block with 16V top end. The Scirocco, I don't believe, ever came with a 2.0l motor, so using the ABA block would not change that factor.

The 94 Audi competition had 275 hp, when they raced it in Germany, so getting 160whp from a 16V has to be doable.

Greg W.

the short block is the 9A 2.0 16v and the ABA is the 2.0 tall block. i have an ABA bottom end with a 16V head on it thats built to be a factory parts turbo engine. it uses stock forged ABA crank and rods with rebushed 9A 2.0 16V pistons giving it a stout 9.2:1 compression. you are are right as the scirocco never came with the 2.0 16V from the factory but the GTI and jetta did and im using the 9A 2.0 16V from a 1992 GTI as the basis engine.

[Mcstiff]

http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?1 ... N-A-valver

[vwnut8392]

http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?187653-Audi-A4-BTCC-STW-engine-specs-305-bhp-from-an-N-A-valver

i've read over that thread many many times. thats a very interesting one off 16v though, it only shares a few similarities with the consumer 16v. look at the cylinder head, its a very similar design to the IMSA GTO head with its gear driven cams. the cams actually rotate into each other instead of the same direction like a consumer 16V head. im sure this engine started life as an off the shelf 16V but once audi sport had their way with it things got out of control lol.



BTCC cams that are gear driven

[Mcstiff]

My thought was that 2/3 the power may be feasible for a grassroots effort.

[RS4Tech]

I didn't put much info into it, but here is the thread where I swapped an aba engine management into a mk 2 16v. It ran great and is much more tuneable than digi. Plus it is easier to get all the parts needed as opposed to digi 1. Let me know if you have any questions. http://www.cepavw.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=24226

[ChrisAudi80]

If I were you I'd try to find an ABF. Its 2.0 16v 150CHP. You can rev the snot out of it.
Pump up the comp to 12.5 or so and use E85 and Megasquirt. Cheaper than VEMS. DF1 is still batch fire injection IIRC.
Not sure if it will hit 150 wheel though. I think 180crank should be possible with the above.

[vwnut8392]

My thought was that 2/3 the power may be feasible for a grassroots effort.

thats what i was thinking too but i wanted to talk with you guys to see your experiences with building 16v's.

I didn't put much info into it, but here is the thread where I swapped an aba engine management into a mk 2 16v. It ran great and is much more tuneable than digi. Plus it is easier to get all the parts needed as opposed to digi 1. Let me know if you have any questions. http://www.cepavw.org/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=24226

i've worked with both M5.9.2 aka OBD1 MK3 management and digifant 1 on 16v engines. digifant 1 is honestly more flexible being that its a MAP sensor based fuel system instead of MAF. plus with the digifant 1 i have custom code added to allow things like map switching via grounding the wire in pin 20 in the engine harness. plus with the MK3 management i have to add a 60-2 crank trigger to the 9A and build a modified single window distributor. good input though and your absolutely right that it M2.9.2 does work well on 16V's. when i originally tested digifant 1 on a 2.0 16V in a scirocco years ago we made 32 more whp than on the stock CIS-E. that was a bone stock 16V with a cone filter, no exhuast or anything.

If I were you I'd try to find an ABF. Its 2.0 16v 150CHP. You can rev the snot out of it.
Pump up the comp to 12.5 or so and use E85 and Megasquirt. Cheaper than VEMS. DF1 is still batch fire injection IIRC.
Not sure if it will hit 150 wheel though. I think 180crank should be possible with the above.

i'd like an ABF if i could find one. it seems like what is needed to build a home brew ABF is an ABA bottom end and swap in ABF pistons, than add a set of ABF cams with a 50mm intake. we have to retain an OEM engine management and an OEM ignition system for the engine as per the rules of the race sanction which stinks because i thought about building another engine harness and putting my VEMS from my audi on it just for the race season lol.



i dont know how well versed you guys are with tuner pro RT but here's my version of the digifant 1 XDF thats been floating around along with a stock BIN to go with it so all the patches work properly. take a look at that and you'll see just how flexible it really is. i've ran 8v turbo on it, 16v NA, 16V turbo, 20v 5 cylinder and 20v turbo 5 cylinder on it so far and all have worked without a hitch. i normally tend to slim the system down by deleting things like the ISV, throttle switches, oxygen sensor so it stays in open loop and kills digi lag. last build i did was on a 2 seater sand rail running an ABA engine and the thing is a freaking animal on digifant 1! the plan is to turbo the buggy in the future and its far easier to do that on DF1 than on motronic because of the MAF and the fact that DF1 was intended for boost from the get go.