Danes street 4000: For Sale!

[deaner]

Ooooooooook.... Where to start? Got home from work Last Sunday night and bolted out into the shop for a little bit. I was gearing up for a camping trip with my kiddo the next morning and knew I wouldn't have time to work on it that week. I'd left off last waiting to get my ecu back from Elaw, which I did that Friday. Plugged it in that night after work and still no spark. Blah! Packed it in. Fast forward to that Sunday.... Long story short I was stupid and wired in the ICM to a circuit that cut out while cranking. Doh!! Moved the source and boom! Spark! Fired up the laptop, threw in the fuel pump relay and said eff it... Cranked it over and it actually caught! Pulled up the cranking table, pulled a bunch of fuel out and got it to actually start and run for a few seconds. I did a victory lap around the shop and then packed it in for the night to get some shut eye in prep for 3 days of herding cats ie taking a few 9 year olds camping.... Awesome trip all joking aside haha!



So here we are now. I can't get this fucking thing to actually run. I've played with it some tonight after work and I keep chasing my tail around between it stinking like fuel and it not having enough to even catch. When it stinks like fuel(after rich ending the cranking table) it'll fire right away and then I'll jump over to the "after start enrichment" table and bump it up a touch and start it and then it'll flood. Clear out the fuel, back off a little on that table and then it won't do anything after it catches. Even going up a tenth or two at a time, it'll get better, better , better, flooded. Lots to learn yet...... This shits maddening haha. Wtf am I doing wrong?

[dana]

is it possible that your plugs are foulded? fouled plugs can really skew your initial tuning and make engines act very unpredictably. Its usually my first thing to try when encountering a situation where something needs a ton of fuel to run and then acts like it floods out.

[DE80q]

Dana is right. Try throwing in a fresh set of plugs and see if that helps. Also make sure your table is scaled for the size injectors you are running. Mine was crazy rich when I first started, and found out it was scaled for #36 not #42 injectors.

[deaner]

I'll throw a fresh set of plugs in it today and try it again from square one. Any good recommendation on plugs? I've never liked these multiple ground plugs that are in it now...thanks guys.

Am I doing this right? MS1 doesn't have a dedicated "cranking table" that I can find and it seems cranking PW and priming PW share a table if you'd like them to or you can set the priming to a constant pw which turns the priming pw table into a cranking table? That's what I gathered anyhow.... I ended up setting the prime PW to a constant and at the lowest setting possible that would still kick the pump on, to keep from adding fuel every time Id key it one. Then on that table, I'd adjust just the number at the temp the sensor is reading(100*) and try to get it to catch. Seemed to like 2.5-3ms at crank and it would go. Then I'd pull up the "after start enrichment" table and add fuel until it'd take off. The mega manual says 25-45% is should be a normal enrichment but mine seemed to like about 10%. I could get it to start and run for a few seconds, longest being like 20sec at 500rpm or so. Then it gets warmer and will flood out. Grrrr. Lol.

[DE80q]

Are you trying to use the ISV? If not, it sounds like you need to use the idle scew, and make it idle more like 1000rpm. That's a good starting point idle. 500 is just way too low when you are first starting.

[DE80q]

As for the plugs, I run what ever NGK rocomends for the 5k. I'll try to find the part #.

[deaner]

No ISV at the moment. I don't even have it wired in yet. I'd thought of adjusting the plate or idle screw too, after getting it to sooomewhat stay running with keeping the throttle open a bit. The thought I had late last night was too much fuel but now thinking about it, I think you're right. The idle screw, is that the screw on the top of the throttle body or does the plate stop need to be adjusted you think? I think my biggest issue is not really knowing what "typical" numbers should be either. Pretty much just shooting in the dark at the moment, feeling my way through.

I can look up the PN as well. I need to run out to the store in a bit to grab some things and I'll grab some plugs too.

Another thing I noticed.. I upgraded to a registered version of tuner studio and played with the "table generator" to try and get a ball park map for when it transitioned into the map from ASE. Before I did that, I could see on the fuel table the little dot in the cells as where it was reading and now after having TS generate the map, it's not on there anymore. Was hoping I'd get a chance to really work on this thing today but it's looking like not so much. Having a small BBQ and some people over.... Gonna be a looooooong day hahaha. I hate entertaining.....

[DE80q]

I'm in the same boat with the BBQ. It's always fun having people over, but I hate losing a whole day to it.

As for the idle screw, its the one on top of the TB. IIRC, you need to back it out around 2 full turns to get the idle from 500-1000.

[elaw]

Do you have a wideband O2 sensor installed?

Having a WBO2 and having it connected and working with the Megqsquirt (and logging the MS data which will include the AFR reading) can make this process 100 times easier... if you don't have a WBO2 I'd urge you to get one and hook it up.

If you *do* have a WBO2, get some datalogs so we can see exactly what's going on!

Let me add one other thing... looking at your tune, your afterstart enrichment seems to be much less than it should be... that's if MS1 does things the same as MS2/MS3 which I think it does.

Looking at one of my old 20vt tunes, my ASE percentage numbers range from 13 fully warmed up to 100 at -40 degrees F. Yours has 5% enrichment fully warmed up and only 30 percent at -40. So if it seems like it's rich cranking but goes lean as soon as it starts running, especially if cold, the ASE values might be to blame.

[deaner]

No wideband yet. That was the plan to finish up that this morning. It's in, just need to ground it and connect to power. I'd started in on it when you had my ecu and then I was pumped to try and get it to start and just didn't finish.... I'll get it finished up today and grab a few logs. I also picked up some new plugs to throw in.


I thought those values were pretty low too, just by how the motor was acting. Most of the values are from whatever original tune was in it, I then just changed the points depending on temp. Which has settled around 90-100* for the most part while sorting this cold start stuff out. For shits and giggles the other night, I cranked the ASE up to like 50-60% just to see what would happen and nothing really changed. I dropped it back down to 10% and it got better lol. I get this aftenoon out there playing so hopefully I can make some headway. Thanks!

[elaw]

If you're getting the sense it's just too rich, all the time, you can change the main fuel constant which is a heck of a lot easier than editing all the maps.

Under "basic / load settings" select "engine constants 1" and it's the first thing there ("required fuel"). The way it works is a little confusing because there are two numbers there but you can only change one of them. You might try changing it from 6.0 to 5.0 or even 4.5.

That will affect fueling under all conditions *except* cranking. The cranking pulsewidth comes directly from the table.

[deaner]

Good call! The calculator gave me a number of 6.8 at 14.7. I got the wide band in and reading when it fires up. I played around with the cranking pulses a hair and then the constant. I added a bit more fuel to the cranking table and it catches right away now, granted with a little bit of throttle. Got me thinking that maybe it DOES need a bunch more fuel all the way across.... So I bumped the constant up to 7 then 7.2 then 7.4 and it actually stabilized for a a little bit and actually stayed running until I'm guessing the ASE timed out and it moved on to the WUE/main fuel map? The AFR while it was running on its own bounced around 13 or so. Had to take a quick break while my wife ran to town.....

[deaner]

Ooooook now.... While my wife was gone I was thinking about the AFR when it would run didn't make any sense considering how much it was surging and then I had remembered I didn't calibrate the wideband. Doh! Jumped onto 14point7s website and found their megasquirt info and went from there. I chased my tail around some because some of my Tunerstudio stuff didn't jive with their video lol. I'd go to "tools" and the "calibrate AFR" option wasn't there. Only "calibrate TPS." Did some dunking around and found the setting I needed in the "project properties" for what I needed. Done. My computer is old and was being a pita when trying to connect to the internet so I couldn't download the spreadsheet for making calibration easy haha. Yeay! I just messed with values for like 30min until I got within a tenth of the 13.328 and 16.666 that is "perfect." Ended up with like 13.41 and 16.65 so I'm fine with it.

Got it to start and just slowly kept adding fuel. Got it to roughly "idle" for almost a minute but surges pretty bad. It just ping pongs up and down the same 5 cells, so I monkied with those for awhile along with adjusting the cranking and ASE at the higher temps as the motor got warmer. I still starts easier with a quick blip of the throttle(a little rich?) but I'll deal with that after I can get it to actually idle smoothly. When it'd almost die a quick whack of the throttle would wake it back up. I had to shut it down for a bit but I took a quick log while it was running but can't fricken get the viewer to find the damned thing. I'm still working on that aspect but for the time being I'm just going to post screen shots of what I have. The fuel map is a generated map minus the 4-5 cells I was playing with plus I added like 4 points richer across the whole thing when I first saw it was reactin well to more fuel.

[deaner]

I'm fairly certain I've got injector issues going on. There's a certain point that I get to and it feels like it's just pisssssssing fuel, stinks something fierce too. I'll back off a point or two and it'll start popping(lean?). Like literally a point or two..... Every now and then when it shuts down I can hear what sounds like running water coming from the fuel rail. I first heard it last week but thought it may have been coolant making its way through the system, which then it may have been. Being as the car sat for 10 years, I wouldn't doubt them being gummed up yet. I still have pressure bleed off at pretty rapid rate which I'd suspected was the FPR, but now I'm not sure haha. I had a stuck injector at first that has since cleared up and is spitting fuel now. It'll dump all 45lbs of fuel pressure in 15 secs or so. Thinking I should either send these injectors off for cleaning or pick up a new set. It's either $125 to have cleaned for the 5 or $175 or so for a set of 6 in most of the classifieds around, that I've seen anyhow.
Thoughts?

[PRY4SNO]

If you get them cleaned, you have a report of balanced flow rates and they'll likely put on new seals/o-rings at the same time. Buying used could be a bit of a crapshoot.

[deaner]

If you get them cleaned, you have a report of balanced flow rates and they'll likely put on new seals/o-rings at the same time. Buying used could be a bit of a crapshoot.

I think you're exactly right. I'll pull em tonight and send them off this week. Good looking out!

[vt10vt]

I'm fairly certain I've got injector issues going on. There's a certain point that I get to and it feels like it's just pisssssssing fuel, stinks something fierce too. I'll back off a point or two and it'll start popping(lean?). Like literally a point or two..... Every now and then when it shuts down I can hear what sounds like running water coming from the fuel rail. I first heard it last week but thought it may have been coolant making its way through the system, which then it may have been. Being as the car sat for 10 years, I wouldn't doubt them being gummed up yet. I still have pressure bleed off at pretty rapid rate which I'd suspected was the FPR, but now I'm not sure haha. I had a stuck injector at first that has since cleared up and is spitting fuel now. It'll dump all 45lbs of fuel pressure in 15 secs or so. Thinking I should either send these injectors off for cleaning or pick up a new set. It's either $125 to have cleaned for the 5 or $175 or so for a set of 6 in most of the classifieds around, that I've seen anyhow.
Thoughts?

FYI some regulators will dump pressure immediately. If it holds good consistent pressure and moves appropriately with boost/vac then it's fine. The sound you're hearing is probably just it loosing pressure, my aeromotive used to do that. Don't think the 5k reg held pressure either.

It would have to be a very major injector issue to cause that bad of problems, I've run probably 4-5 sets of junkyard injectors and never had a situation that affected the car noticably or detonation on specific cylinders (always 4+5 the worst ). You just got the car running, there's always bugs and settings to work out, I'd keep looking around.

Also PM me your address I found an old tune in my email, I broke the laptop that has all of my old stuff on it but I have a decent idling/running+driving config.

[deaner]

I keep going back and forth. Thanks for the input! Mines an aeromotive as well and I've heard in the past with some DSM guys that theirs bled off too. I'm not too concerned with that because like you had brought up, it holds steady from what I can see at "idle." My thought was just how goofy it acts in between each starting cycle. I can seriously stink the shop out with a 15sec rough idle, back a couple points and it's pops and dies lean. It's got me going mad haha. I'm not claiming to have a decent grasp of tuning but the mindset I have is if you throw enough fuel at it and spark at the right time it should at least run yeah? At the moment it's so back and forth that I get the feeling that something else is wrong. Everything else with my wiring and my spark settings, which I used your write up , is in order.

I would absolutely appreciate a tune you have lying around! I know I need to cut my teeth and figure a lot of this out but my biggest problem is finishing a car put together by someone else that has been sitting for a decade. Id be stoked to have even a rough idle tune just to be able to get to cobweb issues sorted out without the other variables setting in. PM sent!!

[vt10vt]

Sending over a config now but also keep in mind that extremely rich AFR's will sometimes read as full lean sometimes, I've seen it happen with an LC1 and AEM.

[DE80q]

My aeromotive bleads off quite quickly too. Shawn is absolutely correct with the inverted AFR readings. It's really strange how it happens too.

Where do you have the WB sensor located?

[40v4kq]

Just a quick thought here. Check for vacuum leaks. When we first got my v8 swapped car running it seemed that it was running way rich and when I leaned it out it ran like it was way lean. Turned out it had a huge vacuum leak in the form of a idle air port on the IM that was missed and never plugged when we swapped on a throttle body from an infinity v8.

[deaner]

All great stuff to look into. When I head out to the shop here in a couple of hours I'll quadruple check everything. It's gonna be a long night.... My 15 year old lap top finally shit the bed tonight when I was trying to get to Shawns tune. Go figure..... Already have the injectors out of the car but once I get everything squared away on my stupid(and neato!) new laptop I'll throw them in and see what happens. Gotta love Walmart being open 24hrs haha. Innie Minnie miiiiiiinie MO! That one! Lol. It's midnight and I still have to set this laptop up, download TS and Megalog viewer, install drivers for the ISB adapter, load MY tune, try and get Shawns tune loaded AND get the injectors back in the car yet, befoooore even trying to start. And it's midnight.....

Dave, the wideband is in the factory spot on a UrQ downpipe. I know, it's a bit close but word on the street is it should be fine.

Wish me luck! Thanks a ton guys!!

[deaner]

Sleepy.... and I have to be up in a few hours haha. Got everything loaded, injectors in and started on a tune sent over by Shawn. It idles stronger but still putters out after a few seconds. Can some one explain how I go about posting a datalog? Im out, thanks guys!

[elaw]

Well I was *going* to say just hit the "upload attachment" thing when composing a message and upload the file (I'm assuming you already know how to *create* a log file: from the "data logging" menu in TS click "start logging").

But apparently this board doesn't allow uploading .msl files! So perhaps try zipping it?

Also just in general: feel free to email me for help any time! And while there's a ton of Audi-specific knowledge here, there aren't that many people running Megasquirt and particularly MS1. So for issues that aren't super Audi-specific, I'd suggest getting on the MS/Extra forums at http://www.msextra.com/forums/index.php and looking/posting there. Among other things, as you'd expect they permit uploading .msl (MS log) and .msq (MS tune) files.

[elaw]

keep in mind that extremely rich AFR's will sometimes read as full lean sometimes, I've seen it happen with an LC1 and AEM.

That's absolutely true, is a pretty well-known phenomenon, and actually doesn't have to do with the sensor!

What happens is if the mixture goes rich enough, the engine will misfire. And when the engine misfires, unburned fuel goes out the exhaust along with the oxygen that should have been consumed when the fuel burned. Any O2 sensor (wideband or not) will see that O2 and register it as a lean mixture, since that's what O2 in the exhaust usually indicates.

The key to identifying this is 1) if you actually feel the engine misfire or 2) if when looking at a log, the mixture very suddenly goes from very rich to very lean for no apparent reason.