The Project Pad

It must have only been a v8 r8.

ShavedQuattro wrote:It must have only been a v8 r8.

QFT

I felt inspired this evening/morning by Sam's marathon post....

Well, the car is back on the road and ripper status again. It is a really long story that involves 4 head gaskets and head removals over the last 6 weeks, but I am finally back in action. Long story short, I had a piston hit a head, and chew up a bearing. Now the question is what came first, the chicken or the egg? Piston to head clearance of that motor was about .035" with a standard mls gasket. This should be enough, but there was some contact. A bearing going would put enough slop so that at 8500, the piston may be able to reach the head. This is what I believed the first time when I just slapped in a new head gasket. This is a theroy, but later on I found that I like to reject it in favor of the idea that the wiseco's rock a tremendous amount combined with a shady block. The old WR block was not flat, and about .009" twisted(yes, an I5 twisted torsionally) corner to corner, with the high spot being the #1 cylinder(aka the cylinder with contact.). Sure, you guys are thinking that the back corner would be high then as well if this is correct. It was high, but the back corner would not be in the squish, and that tolerance is another +.030 so there wasn't any contact. Anyway, it hit. If a piston hits a head at 8500, the rod bearing has no freaking chance whatsoever.

I figured that hte water in the #1 bore was due to the head lifting when the contact happen. So I just threw another headgasket in, changed the bearing on the bad cylinder, and put it back together.. <drumroll> I still had a leaky #1 upon reassemble. I figured that the poor surface finish on the deck was to blame. I had to weld up a passage to use the WR block with the 20v head, and the file must have been too rough for hte MLS I figured.

Explaination of the block twisting? It is the WR block. For those who have not seen the block up close, it has a few differences but the notable one in my case is the lack of webbing on the block. For whatever reason, Audi decided the newer MC and later 7a,3b and aan blocks needed more webbing.. Why? I'll speculate it was due to testing done in Rally

I measured the piston to wall clearance on that motor( the only thing I really did not measure when putting it together, due to not having a bore gauge in the barn that the assembly took place in). It was a staggering .008" compared to the .0025-.0035" that Wiesco recommends. In addition, the bores were scored on the sides. This is text book for piston rock scoring. Now how did that get opened up that much? I think the "good ol boy" machine shop doing old school stuff heard piston to wall clearance and used the hold hotrod reference as .035" on each side of the piston.

So what to do? I got a very low mile AAN block in with plans to just swap my balanced 81mm assembly into the bores and call it a day. The problem was that this block was just a tad too warn despite 5 digit mileage. It was at about .0045, and I wanted a clean motor. I thought about coating hte pistons, but I just did not have time with a new baby and 18 credits in my Senior year of college. I got new rings for the 3b pistons, ordered a second set of rods( I didn't want to split up my balanced Scat/Wiseco assembly), and threw that sucker back together with arp mains and head studs. I hot tanked the block, decked the block .003 to make it flat, ball honed the block and installed a new check valve. I did not take the time/expense to balance the motor, mostly because the time factor, but also because I was curious as to how a stock motor with rods thrown in feels.

I got it all back together the sorry sucker still was leaking at #1 still. &^%*%^#$ The deck had a reflection!!! The head had been decked with a similar mirror finish!! What gives? It has to be the damn head!! I took the head off again, and sure enough, the #1 intake port showed signs of water/antifreeze. I can't see any cracks or damage on this freshly rebuilt and ported head. Didn't matter, I was not about to put it back on for a 4th head gasket expense. I still don't know where it is cracked.

I started to prep a head. The head I used was the original head I used when going 20vt, and the head that saw the infamous melt down in 2008 when an injector stuck. It was also a ported head, but had some war wounds from the detonation that occured at 30psi and 600cc/1000ccs of fuel. I welded up the wounds and spent an hour blending the combustion chamber, and sent it to the machine shop with the charge to mow out .015" to get rid of the damage. I figure that I am committed at this point to run e85, so why not try a bit more compression. I threw my high rate springs from the cracked heads in with a quick valve jobs(thanks dad for the awesome valve cutting tools!! They work great!!!) and slapped that bad boy back on.

At last, the thing is back in business as of a couple of weeks ago.. After 200 miles of break in at 22psi and compression numbers of 165psi across the board, I finally raised the wick late last night to 28ish... The thing rips. The high compression is awesome. I figure a static compression ratio of around 9.8:1 considering the .019" of shave work I did, and I can completely tell the difference coming form 8:1 pistons. First of all, spool has decreased another 150rpm, and off boost is very, very nice. Figure that this motor is every bit as open as a stock 7a car and I even have 7a cams. This means that I have atleast as much hp/torque as a CQ off boost with about 500 pounds less weight.

Here is a boost profile of what I have going on now in 3rd gear. I want all the big turbo haters to take a gander at where stock URQ levels(9psi?) happen with the k26. If I capped this turbo at 9psi, we would have close to the same spool. I would love to see the boost profile of a rs2 turbo, as I think this 62mm hta35r spools faster.



Anyway, it is late, and it looks like my baby has finally fallen asleep in the swing at the ripe hour of 1am. Dave is organizing a local dyno day on a new mustang dyno in town. It reads a tad low at 230whp for a stock STI, compared to the normal 250whp I see across the internet, but I hope to still put down 500whp next saturday. I am out of fuel on this 1000cc injectors at 28psi and .78 lambda. I will probably baseline this trip, and then put on a new IC and bigger injectors over the spring and go back later this year for another session. I want to hit a couple of track days before summer, and for now the car is a kick...

PS. Peter, I swapped 4 heads and a bottom end, AND had a baby faster than your installed your v8. I hope that 265whp is worth it buddy...

pps, Tonight trying to unjam my 1-2 hub, I managed to bump into an r8 going the other way on a main road that dumps onto the freeway. I flipped around, and caught up just in time to catch the yellow behind the r8 jumping on the freeway. We got onto the freeway only to see they had reduced the lanes to 1 due to construction. Finally it opened up, and I merged into the middle lane. The R8 stayed put, and a semi approached us, so I jumped on it a bit to get in front of the r8. Once I got around the semi, I merged back over... The r8 had got the memo at that point, and it came ripping up at full bore. I dumped it into third, at about 65/4200 and let her have it.. it got only to my rear quarter before I started to walk away... I slowed back down and prepared for a humble thumbs up, yell out the window "hey I love your car"... What happened next I was not prepared for. The tinted windows on the Oregon plated r8 rolled down, and a CHICK WAS DRIVING!!!!! LOL! There was a man in the drivers seat, and he said "Nice audi". Parts of me thinks that it is probably his car, but the other side of me wants to believe a chick has an r8 and isn't afraid to mash on it on the freeway... I got off at the next exit already late home from my "trip around the block", and reflected on what just happened.. The girl caught me so off guard, I realized that I rolled down my window, but did not say anything. I probably just stared at her them with a blank stare... What a tool

So does it count as a kill if it is a girl?

counts double. if you find a little kid driving an R8 and beat them it counts triple.

ShavedQuattro wrote:PS. Peter, I swapped 4 heads and a bottom end, AND had a baby faster than your installed your v8.

You either have a very good/quiet baby, or a very understanding wife! Good for you!

I know my life as I knew it ended the minute I had my first born.. but I digress.
Back to the cold garage tonight once the kids are asleep.. that's in I have the energy..

Cheers

So how does that unbalanced bottom end feel?

Sam

Sam, it is livable that is for sure, but not the same as a balanced bottom end. Like I said in the other thread, with a balanced bottom end, cruising around at 4500 is natural and clean. It is kind of like driving around a sport bike, where "put put" at 6000rpm is not a big deal. Now I notice it. I am sure my fuel economy has gone up as I am aware of the extra vibration. There are two sets of resonants from my butt butt dyno, without any math or real live data. It feels like there is a bit of a vibration at 3600, and another at around 6800. I am still reving to 8500, and it still makes a silly amount of power at that level. I am using an adjustable cam gear now, and 4 degree's of retard flows a stupid amount more of air. Javad back in the day picked up 63whp by retarding the cam timing 4 degrees( from ~485whp to ~543). I feel like I did the same thing. Put it this way

Put it this way, if I were to take the engine out again and had the time, I would take it apart to balance it. For the 250$, it is a hell of a mod that makes the car feel so much more refined. Remember how smooth the 20v felt after coming from the 20v? Kindof like that.

On another note, I am using an adjustable cam gear now, and 4 degree's of retard flows a stupid amount more of air. Javad back in the day picked up 63whp by retarding the cam timing 4 degrees( from ~485whp to ~543). I feel like I did the same thing. Put it this way, with the cam timing at tdc, I could run 90% duty cycle on the injectors at 34psi with ~1400cc injectors. With the cam timing retarded 4 degrees, 90%DC occurs at 28psi. A ton more air is getting in and out of the motor with the retard. I recommend the mod to anybody as long as the turbo still has enough in it(reading jimmy??)

hank, you a little low on sleep with the new baby and all?

Hank, I'm sorta confused...if you retard the cams 4 degrees, doesn't that retard your timing reading 4 degrees if you have a dizzy hall sender?

no dizzy or hall needed for a 60-2 on 034 setup

Congrats on the baby!

Props to you, but I don't have the drive to wrench so much & bugdet that you do so 265whp or whatever this V8 puts out will be enough for me for now. I mean I am only 2-3 $ hundreds in so far going from 5>8 and I still have them ITbs to sell and I kept my complete long block I-5. My point is, my extra money is going towards myself(track days), not so much my car=)

Enjoy it!

:stupid:

Yes, it would if I used a dizzy.

I do want to put in a cam reference at some point so I can stop running wasted spark. It would be nice to have the extra dwell. I'll probably do some testing to see the best amount of retard, an make my cam reference for the IIc that way. I do not know how precise it needs to be anyway. The only thing it really needs to see is what stroke the motor is at.

Peter, I am just nippin at your heels.

ah, so how the heck would I deal with that? I don't think its possible with VEMS referencing the hall sensor and the two VR's at the flywheel. answering my own question...I guess I would just rotate the dizzy

so without a cam ref, how does it know where the cam is for startup? Just hit and miss? and how do you do wasted spark on a 5? Sorry for the questions, I just like to learn.

Congrats on the baby. Try having two of them 10mos one week apart... See what that does to your shop time.

ShavedQuattro wrote:On another note, I am using an adjustable cam gear now, and 4 degree's of retard flows a stupid amount more of air. Javad back in the day picked up 63whp by retarding the cam timing 4 degrees( from ~485whp to ~543).

Now, refresh my memory, is that with 7A cams?

Thanks

loxxrider wrote:ah, so how the heck would I deal with that? I don't think its possible with VEMS referencing the hall sensor and the two VR's at the flywheel. answering my own question...I guess I would just rotate the dizzy

so without a cam ref, how does it know where the cam is for startup? Just hit and miss? and how do you do wasted spark on a 5? Sorry for the questions, I just like to learn.

Right. Rotating the dizzy 4 may work.

Yes, wasted spark means that the spark plug is firing on both strokes. Eliminating the wasted sparks would put half as much load on the coils, and let me run more dwell. I could run non-wasted spark without a cam reference, but then I would only have a 50/50 chance of starting the first time. E85 is hard enough to light off in these frigid parts.

Good Catch Martin, they where cat cams, but profiles very similar to the 7a cams. There may be less gains to be had with the 7a cams, but my butt dyno and the fact that I needed a whole lot more fuel at 27psi leads me to believe that the car is ingesting lots more air at the same pressure, just like hte cat cams did.

I thought you just said you don't have a cam ref above.

Sorry, I edited it twice to make it make more sense. *must sleep more*

mr_aj_johnson wrote: Try having two of them 10mos one week apart... See what that does to your shop time.

What is the story on that!!

mr_aj_johnson wrote:Congrats on the baby. Try having two of them 10mos one week apart... See what that does to your shop time.

I had two in the same minute

I understand the math in that... I am just trying to figure out 10months 1 week. By my calculations, that is 1 week earlier than the doctor ordered...

ShavedQuattro wrote:I understand the math in that... I am just trying to figure out 10months 1 week. By my calculations, that is 1 week earlier than the doctor ordered...

Yeah, Irish twins for sure. My guess is that the second was a bit early.

Yeah we waited 6 weeks to the day. I figured you got at least one freebie, however considering we only had one go at it.... Lets be clear that we have since taken better precations.

Mcstiff wrote:

mr_aj_johnson wrote:Congrats on the baby. Try having two of them 10mos one week apart... See what that does to your shop time.

I had two in the same minute

I almost feel bad for you, however you only had to deal with nine continuous months of pregnant wife. Boys/Girls?