The Project Pad

audifreakjim wrote: I can either do GMG @ 195/hr or go to Hermosa Beach at a new shop that will do $125/hr. Hmm, I always like the hungry new shops even if it's an hr away.

I vote HB. We'll grab a coffee if I'm in town. Maybe I'll even bring the Coupe out of retirement.

Haha Jim, I dont know... I *think* I want to try the Pro52 (maybe with QSV) first. If that doesn't work, we can always swap something else on later. The only things that would change would be a small tweak to the IC piping and a tweak to the downpipe (plus some coolant lines or something). I'd certainly consider an HTA as I think they have built the most badass turbo around right now (yes I know it is Garrett). I definitely don't want any of that GTX bs though

ShavedQuattro wrote:Ed, do you have a log of your pull in 3rd? I never got a clean log in 3rd from my old setup. I think the one I use now and then to show spool on my 2.2L is a 4th gear pull. Loading it up in 4th I could get full boost at around 4000 or so IIRC.

Your 3rd gear pull isn't exactly apples to apples, as you have an honest 1000lbs on me to help load up the turbo, but it is pretty close to help understand the gain from displacement only. We have pretty much the same setup at this point.

I will take some logs and post em up soon.

I found a mustang dyno in Lake Forest which is perfect for me
http://www.gruppe-s.com/service.php

$50 strap fee and $150 and hr. They also seem to have a pretty good reputation, can't seem to find anything bad about them.

So I'll let everyone know when and where. If anyone is interested in putting their car on the dyno, let me know so we can schedule together.

I'd love to see a overlay of spool valve disconnected and the one you posted. I am trying my hardest to tell myself my motor is awesome enough, but I just can't believe how awesome the valve is on a 2.3L

ShavedQuattro wrote:I'd love to see a overlay of spool valve disconnected and the one you posted. I am trying my hardest to tell myself my motor is awesome enough, but I just can't believe how awesome the valve is on a 2.3L

Agreed, really interested in seeing this!

disconnected as in full open or full closed?

Yeah, I guess you may have that data. Wish you were on a billet 35r like the rest of us You did notice your pictures were with a 35r GTX on it right? Yours is interesting because it is a .82 wide open right?

Hank

I liked the Banana before Jimmy

LOL, wow.

Yeah dad's is .82. 1.0 wan't meeting our spool goals so even if we have to make a sacrifice in the top end that's the way it's gotta be. but we don't have surge and the top end seems fine. but I would like to see it on Jim's car too. I think we'd go 3586 if we were moving to HTA. that gtx looks OKAY though

Wait till BBQ, you can hopefully do back to back dyno runs and a ride/drive in the car. The valve disconnected, as in no control by the CPU or unplugged boost reference?

Fair enough. When I say wide open, I just mean whatever it takes to have both veins open all the time

ShavedQuattro wrote:I liked the Banana before Jimmy

That is awesome.

Lol @ my old webpage. I can get a log with the valve opening at 8psi, it will be almost like it is disconnected. I can't easily disable the valve completely because it is on the bottom of the flange.

I have decided to clear bra the front bumper, leading edges of the fenders, and side skirts. This means I have a lot of rock chips to fix, so tuning may take a back seat for a week or so. I'll try and get that log tomorrow. off to play golf now.

Took some boost logs today for comparison. Still needs more tuning, have to find the sweet spot that allows for spool as early as possible in lower gears but doesn't overboost in 4/5/6. 4th is hitting fuel cut earlier than I expected. Another alternative is to install some kind of switch that tells the ECU what gear it's in and run different boost profiles for each.

Here are the current settings:


4th gear fuel cut:


3rd gear - No doubt it could be spooling quicker if the wastegate weren't opening at 4100 RPMs.

Dammit Ed, please just run closed loop!

I don't understand why everyone uses open loop and deals with stupid boost problems in different gears. Why take the time to make a switch to run different boost profiles when you can just type a few numbers into VEMS and it will do an even better job? Please let me help you and everyone else using shitty open loop!

Yeah, I will run closed loop once I actually tune boost. It's fine for now, I can't boost like I really want to until I rebuild the fuel system anyways, so I haven't really taken the time to tune boost. Before today it was running only 20psi - I was just messing with it to make some logs to compare.

k good

I am about to go back to manual boost control, I have never been able to get closed loop working to where it actually hits the boost target. I can get a stable boost curve in third gear, but them it either overshoots or creeps in 4th for example. I am adding pressure to the top of the WG. Using just lower chamber control was limiting my max boost, though it may better with the larger hotside and less backpressure.

I am planning on trying to dial it in on the dyno, but can see myself wasting too much time with it.

This has been the best methodology I can find so far.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32685&hilit=PID+tuning+boost+control

It's definitely time consuming, but works very well once it's precisely tweaked (at least on VEMS - I have no experience with 2c). Here is the process that I follow:

-Tune open loop control to produce near but slightly below your boost target
-Tune closed loop MAP/RPM table to reflect your actual targets
-Tune P/I/D settings
-Start with 'P', leave 'I' and 'D' = 0
-Increase 'P' until your boost climbs up to your target
-Tune 'I' so that overshoot is minimized and boost is stable across rpm
-I generally leave 'D' = 0. I've found that it can help reduce overshoot, but in some cases will cause ripple.
-If you are still overshooting your targets, easy solution is to just set them slightly lower so that the overshoot gets you to your target

Ed, that is a great concise writeup. I am going to tweak my plumbing a little as I have the top and bottom WG lines coming from different boost sources which may be screwing with everything. I am going to duplicate the diagram in that link and start over. Probably go burn through some brake pads in second gear to get it close.

It isn't perfect, but I put some time into getting closed loop working in my car earlier this year and it's the only way to fly. I would fix your sources like you said and give it a good shot--it is a pain to figure out, but once you figure out what works it's sooooo much better than the open loop stuff.

Sam

One of the overlooked features in the 034 ECU is the unconventional integrator preset parameter.
Since the boost control solenoid has a fair amount of deadband and each one is a little different, you can
set the integrator preload to a value near where the PWM will want to be when the boost is controlled closed loop.
This reduces the dependency on the "I" term for fast closed loop response and allows better proportional
"P" term damping while not overshooting.

I doubt VEMS has that.

You don't just have a map in there that's like rpm .vs. refDC duty cycle for the boost valve?

EDIGREG wrote:Took some boost logs today for comparison. Still needs more tuning, have to find the sweet spot that allows for spool as early as possible in lower gears but doesn't overboost in 4/5/6. 4th is hitting fuel cut earlier than I expected. Another alternative is to install some kind of switch that tells the ECU what gear it's in and run different boost profiles for each.

Could you integrate a signal from the VSS to the ECU to ramp the boost control?