The Project Pad

chaloux wrote:Owwwwwwwwy. Man! E85? Details details

E85 only for me since I've had the CC as a daily... Not much more detail I have to offer, nothing is conclusive other than heat kills pistons regardless of fuel used...

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Fugg, dat blows. Sorry to hear.

It's ok, They say things happen for a reason... figuring that reason out is the challenge ...

Based on some reading, I think the cause for excessive grease would be an explosion of el DMF... But I'll pull more components apart and take better pics to see what you guys think...

From the 5 options discussed on QW I can Rule out:
#2. Engine oil passing through the rear crank seal
#4. Loose bolt machining a hole through the bellhousing and into the transmission, letting tranmission fluid into the bellhousing


















Those that have had multiple clutch setups...
Is it true a 707 PP requires more pedal effort while holding less than a Twin Disc? (Pick a brand)
However the engagement of TwinDisc is a lot more twichy (on/off) in comparison?

I'm a sucker for lighter daily driveable clutches but I need a reliable setup for my driving style.

The current setup is a Southbend Stage 4 dual ferramic disc on a stock DM Flywheel in an EDU 01e. Say we need enough clutch to put up with whatever this billet 58mm can put out in a 20vt "tractor motor"...

TIA

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Fuck, OB. I am sorry man.

But I like the attitude - just fix it right!

My pilot bearing was close to that point too.

Just do a 7a stg4. Dad has a 7a flywheel. Feels like stock still in my opinion

chaloux wrote:Just do a 7a stg4. Dad has a 7a flywheel. Feels like stock still in my opinion

I'm afraid... afraid of the 707 pressure plate... the required force needed for daily usage...
did your dad get the 707pp or the HDpp? I'm sure it felt like a stock worn clutch, which as we all know grows stiff with time and use

Nah it felt the same as stg4 with the dmf. I don't know what dad got, the kit came from Marc. Stage 4 extreme street. I would daily drive it no problem. My mom drove the car. Don't be a Sally!

http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/produ ... ucts_id=38

chaloux wrote:Nah it felt the same as stg4 with the dmf. I don't know what dad got, the kit came from Marc. Stage 4 extreme street. I would daily drive it no problem. My mom drove the car. Don't be a Sally!

http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/produ ... ucts_id=38

So he had a 7a SMF Stage 4 huh?... Then perhaps his memory was little swayed, because, believe it or not, that's the example he tells me all the time worked that was identical too mine... I always expressed my love for the feel, modulation and lightness of the DMF version of the Stage4 Ferramic I had.

The one you linked to uses a 707 pressure plate and is a 900ft/lb rating... WAY to Overkill, IMO... there must be a middle ground...

I definitely wanna go SMF, so my choices are as follows:

a) Put in a fresh 7a flywheel I had purchased beforehand from DE80q before I knew what the swap entailed and bite the 707 bullet (will withstand any future goals at the cost of increase pedal effort, decrease modulation (on/off), vague feel of the flywheel.)
Needs:
Flywheel (already have)
New Pressure Plate 707 or HD(still looking for feedback from someone with HD experience)
New Stage4 Feramic Disc

b) Just find an AAN spec SMF and continue to use SB DMF kits (perfect feel, light effort, modulation I'm accustomed too)
AAN Spec Flywheel in 1 piece
New Disc Stage4 Southbend
Reuse my existing Pressure Plate (already have)

looks like either way the cash outlay will be similar...

I thought you were one of the ones who got a flywheel from me. Was wondering why it wasn't in yet. Is there really that much of an effort difference in the 707PP? I know there was minimal noticeable difference in feel of the peddle between my OEM NG clutch, and the spec stg3 I have now. Grant it, I'm in a small chassis, which is SM from the start.

DE80q wrote:I thought you were one of the ones who got a flywheel from me. Was wondering why it wasn't in yet. Is there really that much of an effort difference in the 707PP? I know there was minimal noticeable difference in feel of the peddle between my OEM NG clutch, and the spec stg3 I have now. Grant it, I'm in a small chassis, which is SM from the start.

Yup,,, was me... was just waiting for a moment like this to install it...
I believe in the Spec lineup, STG3 is like a ~500chp/ctq setup... nothing like the 707 or 765 setup that's capable of almost twice that amount with the right disc.

mushasho wrote:Yup,,, was me... was just waiting for a moment like this to install it...
I believe in the Spec lineup, STG3 is like a ~500chp/ctq setup... nothing like the 707 or 765 setup that's capable of almost twice that amount with the right disc.

I had a spec 3+ (SA233F) in my black coupe which I was told was rated for 450.

Sorry to hear about the issues but glad to see youre building it stronger

Afterthought wrote:
I had a spec 3+ (SA233F) in my black coupe which I was told was rated for 450.

Sorry to hear about the issues but glad to see youre building it stronger

Thanks for the clarification, I thought it was around that vicinity,...
The more I think about what I want out of my car, the more I lean towards just replacing my flywheel with a stock AAN sized Single MASS unit.... Doesn't even need to be anything fancy either. I don't mind the stock weight as it made it low rpm drivable and it's something somewhat of a priority. Finding an aluminum replacement seems easier than finding one constructed out of steel. But a 12lb Aluminum is just too much in the wrong direction for what I'm after. Something in the 18-20lb range I think would be ideal if I could find it in steel. I haven't found many aluminum ones in that range.

So what manufactures are left that make AAN DMF sized replacement flywheels designed in a single piece that isn't a feather weight?




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You are honestly over thinking it. You have a stock weight single mass 7a flywheel. Get whatever clutch kit you think will hold the power you're after. However, the stage 4 is literally like a stock clutch, so why not go full badass and get it and never change it again?

Matt said above why not 7A? Either way You're correct that the steel ones are harder to find but I agree it is worth it to spend a little extra for one. Aluminum gets noisy. Last time I was looking the only place I could find one was 034, then they called me back after ordering and said actually it's out of stock, but we'll make you one since we made the mistake.. But it was too much money to have it made.

I like how my 034 Alum flywheel lets the motor rev freely but thats is. Noisy gear chatter below 3k and rattles at idle with clutch out.

I'd do 7A if I had to do it again

Why not a 7a?... Well because as you stated, I'd need to purchase a whole new kit to go along with that... Have you priced one out lately?... Not only is the required 707 overkill in the clamping department it's the 1 item in the required clutch kit that drives the price up unnecessarily in my case... Along with the other downsides I really don't wanna face.. (I've got a weakish left knee from sports)...
I figured for the price of the required 707 7a kit I could just get a new steel flywheel and new disc from SB (optional since mine can still be used) for half the cost, and keep all the positive things I like about my current clutch... Granted the price point used was using an aluminum 12lb which is readily available, worst case scenario... So finding one in steel is my only hurdle at this point. No chatter, easier engagement, and normal AAN Pressure Plates...
I'm 100% certain my SB4 could hold the power, so out growing it isn't really a concern at this point... Plus , I run PTE's... The laggy nature shouldn't produce gobs of torque as much as I would like it too...

Who makes a steel FW, even if its lighter?


If I went aluminum it'll probably be the typical Fidanza 112221

Even though it looks like they can make me one http://www.fidanza.com/steel-flywheels/

I wonder if Eurospec would sell the flywheel separately or if it's even compatible with other clutch components...
http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/clutches/clutch-flywheel.htm

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If i were you i'd just buy this use an organic clutch and a fidanza alu wheel . That's what i run, I mean it's stiff, for stop and go traffic annoying, but not impossible. Smooth linearish engagement .

carl wrote:If i were you i'd just buy this use an organic clutch and a fidanza alu wheel . That's what i run, I mean it's stiff, for stop and go traffic annoying, but not impossible. Smooth linearish engagement .

Yup that's the dreaded Sachs 707 disc I'm trying to avoid due exactly to what you mentioned... I'm just not comfortable pairing that up with a noisy low inertia aluminum failure prone 2piece flywheel...
I know many people that run it with no issues and have "grown" to deal with it...
I for one don't need to make those compromises for the "gain" it offers on a daily basis... Anyone who drives a 707 spec'd clutch kit says the same thing, pedal effort is high making the feel of the engagement process harder to modulate and the effects get even more finicky if you add a lightweight flywheel.... If you have a 7a setup that doesn't sound like what I'm describing then it's possible you don't have a 707 disc. And this is an avenue I'm researching at the moment.

I believe I've found the problem to my clutch holding woes but I'll confirm this in the morning... The solution will be an upgrade in terms of future reliability not in extra torque capacity as I believe a feramic disc (which will again be incorporated) is more than adequate for my build.
I expect the end result to have excellent engagment, with a light pedal effort, predictable modulation throughout the engagment process, and equal if not slightly better tq rating as a bonus. It will also eliminate the DMF(which appears to NOT be damaged after all)

Let's see if I can have my cake and eat it too...

If in the meantime someone comes across a SMF AAN Steel Replacement, I'm all ears even though I think I have a plan mapped out...

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Yea indeed i have a 7a fidanza alu wheel. I head ferramic had chatter issues, springs popping out, i wanted to stay clear of that.

carl wrote:Yea indeed i have a 7a fidanza alu wheel. I head ferramic had chatter issues, springs popping out, i wanted to stay clear of that.

To my understanding the chatter portion comes mostly from puck style friction disc. Since my current setup used a solid (unsprung) fullfaced feramic material, designed to be used with a dual mask stock flywheel, I didn't ever experience a spring popping out since the flywheel was in charge of dampening the engagement.

Chatter is also amplified when used with a lightweight aluminum flywheel as you have. I wanted to stay away from those two piece lightweight aluminum flywheel because they also have a documented history of failing and breaking apart. So in the end reliability is still in question. Ultimately the most reliable chatter free setup would indeed be a solid steel flywheel. I can only imagine how much you hate your setup in traffic... Heavy pedal, grippy disc and low inertia noisy flywheel... It just makes for a situation that leaves little room for error.

The problem comes (and could be solved)in finding a solid steel flywheel that could be used with stock or aftermarket AAN spec clutch kits.

If you could link me to any catastrophic sprung feramic disk, I would certainly love to see the nature of the damage as I may ultimately end up with some sort of solid flywheel that would necessitate a sprung feramic disk. Can you recall if those disks were made by SB, CM, CN, or Centerforce?

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So upon much closer inspection its been confirmed that the AAN DMF did NOT blow up and cause the layer of gear oil present in the bellhousing...

Here are some pics in the exact order that tell the true story...










Dirty

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0SY4EAA_E[/youtube]

Clean

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLbSYhCfRX0[/youtube]





The verdict:
1st - Pilot bearing failure - Causing an uncontrolled/unbalanced shaft movement
2nd - Input Shaft Transmission Seal - Took the abuse of these vibrations by absorbing the energy causing accelerated wear and premature failure causing,
3rd - Gear Oil - to spread through out the housing and into the friction surfaces

So what I'm left with in the end is:
1) An oil saturated disc with good life in it , (could be cleaned up and easily brought back to life, Feramic benefit #1)
2) A Pressure Plate that's a bit uneven from all the slippage that's it endured, (not sure if any shop resurfaces Pressure plates)
3) A Stock DMF flywheel that seemed to deal better with it than the PP did... (it could be resurfaced, reused with a new pilot bearing)
4) A throwout bearing that has indented pressure plate "finger marks"
5) Bad input shaft seal.

The next setup will just basically remove the DMF and hopefully make the overall system more reliable and trouble free even though my existing setup was faultless given the circumstances & would without a doubt preform as expected under normal circumstances.
So expect my next kit to be an upgrade in reliability not so much in the power handling but now Carl has me researching failed sprung feramic discs popping their springs. NO sense in removing a failure prone DMF to get into a failure prone sprung disc

Matt's right, I be over thinking stuff, but hey when all I do is couple hours of work on it here and there, thinking about stuff is the only thing that bridges the gap to help motivate me to get back to it..

mushasho wrote:

carl wrote:Yea indeed i have a 7a fidanza alu wheel. I head ferramic had chatter issues, springs popping out, i wanted to stay clear of that.

To my understanding the chatter portion comes mostly from puck style friction disc. Since my current setup used a solid (unsprung) fullfaced feramic material, designed to be used with a dual mask stock flywheel, I didn't ever experience a spring popping out since the flywheel was in charge of dampening the engagement.

Chatter is also amplified when used with a lightweight aluminum flywheel as you have. I wanted to stay away from those two piece lightweight aluminum flywheel because they also have a documented history of failing and breaking apart. So in the end reliability is still in question. Ultimately the most reliable chatter free setup would indeed be a solid steel flywheel. I can only imagine how much you hate your setup in traffic... Heavy pedal, grippy disc and low inertia noisy flywheel... It just makes for a situation that leaves little room for error.

The problem comes (and could be solved)in finding a solid steel flywheel that could be used with stock or aftermarket AAN spec clutch kits.

If you could link me to any catastrophic sprung feramic disk, I would certainly love to see the nature of the damage as I may ultimately end up with some sort of solid flywheel that would necessitate a sprung feramic disk. Can you recall if those disks were made by SB, CM, CN, or Centerforce?

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I wouldn't say i hate it, just a lil more annoying but then again just being manual in stop and go traffic is more annoying than a auto tranny. It's really not bad, unless maybe someone weighed under 100lbs lol. Never stalled it on the road due to weight issues but running vems so idle is a little strong. Also running organic so like i said it's smooth and doesn't bite or make any noise. I really like my setup .

Using google images "Spec failure" has plenty of nastyness, spring chucking party, never researched others. Didn't buy into the centerforce weights thing, looked too much like something waiting to happen at high rpm.

Ah ok, could be a SPEC isolated situation. I think I'm safe with SouthBend...

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